Oct28
Leaked Labor Doc Shows Issue 2 a Tossup
on October 28th, 2011 at 8:18 amPosted In: Lancaster Issues
The Washington Post has reported that there is a leaked document from the progressive organization Progress Ohio revealed that Issue 2 could go either way. Click here.
I’m slightly torn on the issue (2). On one hand, I don’t believe anyone, including police officers, firefighters and teachers should be handed automatic promotions and pay raises “Just because” they are union. But on the other hand they have an important place in the community and in many ways MAKE the community and I wouldn’t want to see things get any worse than they are now.
Maybe I just won’t even vote on that particular part of the ballot. That way, I’m not contributing to a near tossup.
On an off topic note: I live near the now vacant firehouse on East Main St. it IS a little more uncomfortable knowing that there is now an added 3-5 minute response time to our area.
ChaunceyMdD: Even those terrible unions were only giving 3% raises at most during the good times for their employees… and most public servants over the past 3 to 5 years have either had their pay frozen or have taken significant cuts. Also, I don’t know anyone that gets a promotion “just because”.
I would hope you vote against issue 2.
I could care less about State workers having a union. I will be voting a big No on issue 2 because of the way SB 5 was rammed thru and because I have seen over the years how the State unions have worked with their respective local administrations. The unions have given one concession after another in an attempt to help with the changes in the economy. If there is to be change, then a NO vote on Issue 2 will put us back at the beginning where the State can work with the unions to make necessary changes. As much as our Governor wants this to be an Autocratic Society, it just ain’t that way around here.
Although I’m leaning more towards voting against issue 2, I do take note to your statement Bobcat:
“I don’t know anyone that gets a promotion “just because””.
I do believe that people have their hand out everyday, bucking the system, expecting things that they don’t deserve “just because” they can. In terms of promotion, there are people with union tenure that do shitty jobs, think their shit don’t stink “just because” they are union and get promoted “just because” they have union power behind them. Meanwhile, the hard working greenhorn trying to do better for them and a company gets a pink slip “just because” the lazy tenured union vet gets favored. I think that stinks and don’t say it doesn’t happen..
If it is close…there should be much soul searching in the polling industry,,,isn’t it behind by like 25 points in the latest poll?
perhaps this liberal group just wants to motivate folks to actually get out and vote?
ChaunceyMdD… we can agree to disagree. I see some of your points. However, I don’t buy the hype machine that union workers in the public services do not work hard… tenure or not. Do I agree that it could be an issue amongst a small percentage in any field union or not? Absolutely.
I have worked in the private sector and honestly there was a lot of standing around and talking compared to the hands on rigorous work of teaching for 7.5 straight hours and then another 2 planning and consulting. Ever have to care for a toddler all day? Try caring for 25 kids at once throughout the day with a break of less than an hour across that time and doing it 180 times a year.
I had two high school teachers that I can remember at LHS… one in economics and the other in history that literally just read off overheads all day. Now that I am a teacher I see that it is not the best practice. And at the time I knew that seeing half the class sleeping right there. But that does not bother me now and did not bother me then. I stayed awake (mostly) and paid attention and made the best of it. I was almost an adult and I had to take some responsibility to learn. Every other teacher… or more than 95% in all… were up and around throughout helping us learn.
And firefighters and police officers? I don’t know. I find it hard to believe that they sit around doing nothing. And plus they work long shifts and deserve some down times.
This is the latest of the spin machines that certain conservatives with an agenda to end union power like to do. Plus… I could go over several positives for unions in the public sector.
I plan on voting yes on the issue two.
5:
I think I know which history teacher you mean. If we have the same person in mind, he came to a sad end a couple of years ago. He put in at least 40 years and retired. A few months after he retired, doctors told him that he had extensive cancer. He passed away shortly after.
This is off the topic.
This morning, I was checking old bookmarks and found “Panic Level One,” a link one of my friends sent to me last year.
I didn’t notice it at the time, but the creator of the 1.25 minute spoof was “crabbyfatguy.” Coincidence?
Here’s the link; it’s worth a look not only because it’s funny but also because of the snow hitting the country right now: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5970959/panic-level-one
Radio ad:
Caller: someone is breaking into our house!
911: I’m sorry, there are only two deputies, and they’re going to a fatality accident at the other side of the county, it’ll be at least 15 minutes. Lock your bedroom door.
(sales pitch how this could happen if unions couldn’t force more staffing)
My solution #1:
Caller: Tell them we need help NOW, it’s too late to help the dead people. They can fill out paperwork after they catch our burglar.
My solution #2:
Caller: No problem, I’ve got this sweet 44 magnum, and I’ve been itching to try it on a live target.
*****
TV ad:
Without unions, staffing levels will be decided by politicians, not law enforcement people.
My reply: So? How long will a politician last if his constituents feel he’s causing a lack of police protection?
*****
The purpose of today’s unions is to protect deadwood. I’m voting yes.
Why should some unions and workers be treated differently under the law than other unions and workers? How can they single out two categories of workers – public and teacher – and change the rules for them, but not apply the new rules to other unions and workers?
SB-5 treats public unions and their representations differently than private unions.
…
I think that things could have been fixed without a badly worded and probably unconstitutional law. If it hadn’t been put up for repeal, it would have ended up in court where it would have been eventually been sent back to be reworked.
Everyone has a right to join a union and enter the collective bargaining process, and when a contract is up, have the right to either reinitiate or strike. The right to strike is limited only in areas where public safety is involved. Those …workers SHOULD be compensated for that right being taken away, and they have been…
I think it comes down to this: Just like any other bizness, nothing forces gubmint to either enter into collective bargaining OR make stupidly bad bargains. Either side can renegotiate at contract time.
So, it’s simple: if you don’t want to pay people what they want, then put your big-boy pants on and hire someone else – or do the work yourself. Don’t try to take from them rights that you still have.
What SB5 does is separate the rights of public and private union workers, which is, and should be, an issue that concerns each of us.
When a fireman pushes for a no vote on issue 2, ask him if he’s willing to do his job for the salary the median firefighter (Ahia or US) gets.
When he says no, follow the money.
Sorry, Auntie. Your question/example makes no sense. Pretty close to being a straw man.
I’ve spent 20+ years rising – errrr… floating – to the below-sea-level top of my profession. Why should I have to settle for the median income? What if it is a captain making the call?
Nobody is answering what I consider to be the real question (In fact, everybody is avoiding it.):
Why should some unions and workers be treated differently under the law than other unions and workers?
The state doesn’t HAVE to enter into collective bargaining with ANY union. But nobody wants to deal with the result of that…
If American Airlines goes on strike, we fly Delta (whoever-I don’t fly). If the air traffic controllers go on strike, we’re screwed.
Now that we’ve established “why” and established a precedent, I’ll up my question. Ask the union fireman if he’s willing to take the 69th percentile firefighter’s pay. No? Why does being in a union automatically entitle him to pay in the top 30%, all other abilities aside?
“If the air traffic controllers go on strike, we’re screwed.”
Federal law may prevent a ATC strike, but it doesn’t – and shouldn’t – outlaw collective bargaining, which is what SB5 basically does.
As to the rest of your reply… I’m having trouble making sense of what you’re saying, so I’ll try to parse it up:
“Ask the union fireman if he’s willing to take the 69th percentile firefighter’s pay.”
Are you talking across the board? Why make such a bad bargaining deal? And why should he? Where is he now pay-wise? What if he has 15+yrs in, and is already in the 90%? Explain to me, please.
“Why does being in a union automatically entitle him to pay in the top 30%, all other abilities aside?”
Top 30% of what? National average wage? Firefighter’s average wage? Teachers? Gubmint cube-dwellers?
Where do you get that from? Who’s demanding that? What wacked-out study by what special interest group shows you that?
Are you saying that unions should be outlawed?
Why not go whole-hog then and overturn FLSA and NLRA?
Hell, why not just outlaw any kind of right of association.
Then you can go on to the 1st + 14th ammendments…
My high school child has a teacher that told the kids one day, “Get into your study groups, I don’t feel like doing anything today.” And did nothing.
Another teacher has spent less than half of the class time teaching. The majority of the time has been spent on the computer, non-class related or gone from the room.
Now, tell me again how I should vote.
Bluejackets never took a day off from work. Never a moment. Heck he works through his lunch break. 12 straight hours, man… 365 days a year.
If Bluejackets knew anything about the current state of education way beyond the control of the common teacher, he would realize why a teacher like that may be burned out and may want to take a class period (heaven forbid) to collect themselves. I’m a teacher… been there done that! Still get the kids to learn thank you very much! Actually the down times and reflections have brought me the most growth. There are usually 4 to 5 days a year where you literally throw your hands up. But you collect yourself and adjust.
Has bluejackets ever had a job?.. clearly not. I have never, EVER been on a job (10 to 15 of them… McD’s to college level and administrative) that continuously day after day did not have “down times”. In teaching, you have to be in direct supervision of kids almost all day providing direct instruction.
I pay a lady to watch my toddler and although she does read to her and take her out to activities, I sure as hell don’t have a problem with her having my daughter sit in front of the tv now and then. It may not be a perfect thing, but that is REALITY.
What a bunch of self-righteous garbage. Be a patriot and wake up. At least give a valid reason for voting yes.
bluejackets-
You should vote yes, so the union can support these slouches. We had a fifth grade teacher who had us listen to an hour and a half radio program every school day. Nothing school related, just a huge break.
Valid reason? OK, I pay taxes and vote for people to represent me in spending those allocated funds, not to have new expenses shoved down my throat by a union.
“Why does being in a union automatically entitle him to pay in the top 30%, all other abilities aside?”
Top 30% of what?
Firefighter’s average wage.
My brother hates unions, but is in a union shop. He figures if they didn’t have to pay so much to the deadwood, they could pay him more. If you clawed your way to the top, you should feel the same.
union shop is completely, completely different from a union in the public service sector fields. Teachers, police, or firefighters can only “slouch” for so long. The jobs are too demanding and direct to public ridicule that anything egregious would end.
The ignorance on these boards are mind numbing.
Eek -
I sincerely do not see any root of reasoning behind your mythical firefighter question. No job, union or otherwise starts anyone off at even near the median salary for a profession. If your “guaranteed” top 30% automatic salary statement is fact, and your mythical firefighter will settle for no less, where did the bottom 70% go?
I’ll post my other questions again…
Do you think that unions should be outlawed?
If so, why not go whole-hog then and overturn FLSA and NLRA?
Hell, why not just outlaw any kind of right of association.
Then you can go on to the 1st + 14th ammendments…
I’ll bet money that most of the people who vote for Issue 2 have less education, less invested in their jobs, and less actual knowledge of the situations, reasons for and behind the legislation, and have in general done little or no research — they’ve mostly taken their cues from talk-show hosts and/or the radio ads spawned by 501(4C) groups who keep their (mostly out-of-state, bundled corporation dollars) donors secret.
These talk-show hosts and ads use envy and fear over fact, and prey on the very ignorance exhibited in mythical arguments with non-existent boogie-men who all inhabit the 70th salary percentile of whichever profession you are starting at the bottom of…
“The ignorance on these boards are mind numbing.”
They certainly are.
Fireman takes firearm into bar. Threatens wife with gun. Holds off police for several hours. Doesn’t lose job, nor even get cited. You or I would be in jail.
Egregious enuf?
I sincerely do not see any root of reasoning behind your mythical firefighter question. No job, union or otherwise starts anyone off at even near the median salary for a profession. If your “guaranteed” top 30% automatic salary statement is fact, and your mythical firefighter will settle for no less, where did the bottom 70% go?
70% of Ahia and US firefighters are volunteers, like the ones who assisted on the Fat Cats fire because they had better equipment with foam capability.
“The ignorance on these boards are mind numbing.”
The ignorance on these boards is mind numbing.
“70% of Ahia and US firefighters are volunteers, like the ones who assisted on the Fat Cats fire because they had better equipment with foam capability.”
I volunteer at a church open kitchen. Does the fact that I have supreme mashed potato skills augmented by an excellent top-of-the-line mixer and a winning personality have anything to do with me being a volunteer?
You are dodging the questions and ignoring the real reasons and effects behind SB5 and the pro-Issue 2.
Chances are, you are the person I am referring to in the last two paragraphs of my last post.
OhioBobcat555:
Actually, I do work through my lunch break. I also do put in 12 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week. Small business owners typically do that. And If I take the day off, I don’t earn anything that day.
The current state of education is that we have some bad teachers that no one can get rid of, thanks to the Union Protection Program. The 2nd teacher mentioned hasn’t done it just one day. This has been ongoing from the beginning of the year. My kid noticed it and has actually started to record the time spent. Less than half of the class time has been spent on educating, for the last 2 weeks. I don’t know you, OBC. You may be a good teacher that can connect with the students. So, why would you want to protect the bad ones?
I can agree with you on one thing, the ignorance of some on this board is mind numbing. The others are just tired of working hard to support not only their family, but three others that think they are entitled.
I also hope you appreciate my indentation skills at the beginning of my paragraphs. I had a good teacher for English class once.
Too bad Crabby’s program takes away the indents.
“Chances are, you are the person I am referring to in the last two paragraphs of my last post:”
I’ll bet money that most of the people who vote for Issue 2 have less education, less invested in their jobs, and less actual knowledge of the situations, reasons for and behind the legislation, and have in general done little or no research — they’ve mostly taken their cues from talk-show hosts and/or the radio ads spawned by 501(4C) groups who keep their (mostly out-of-state, bundled corporation dollars) donors secret.
These talk-show hosts and ads use envy and fear over fact, and prey on the very ignorance exhibited in mythical arguments with non-existent boogie-men who all inhabit the 70th salary percentile of whichever profession you are starting at the bottom of…
edjukation: Bachelor degree.
investment in job: you wouldn’t believe it.
talk show hosts: never listen to them.
70th percentile: first saw it in an ad by a battery company. since seen it confirmed for Ahia in an unrelated aerticle.
Too bad Crabby’s program takes away the indents.
Crabby has apparently picked a particularly bad blog software. I post on two others that work much better.
“70th percentile: first saw it in an ad by a battery company. since seen it confirmed for Ahia in an unrelated aerticle.”
Could you post your refs re the 70%, please? I haven’t seen or heard anything referencing anything even resembling your claims – firefighter or otherwise… I’m still not even sure I understand what you actually mean, as I can only read what you actually write.
Non-related: I don’t think anyone indents anymore, escpecially online. You can when writing a personal, hand-written note or it is required format for some papers.
I wish they would actually make it mandatory to take a letter writing course in High school. Some of the emails I receive at work, you can’t make heads or tails out of. Incorrect punctuation (if there is any), no paragraphs, no capitalization, etc. And most never use the spell check button. I’m amazed that they can actually turn the computer on……
google percentage of volunteer firefighters in america. You can go thru the 1.8 million results as easily as I can.
Huh. So yer countin’ volunteers as average salary. That’s what I thought, but I wanted you to out w/it.
Yer picture otta be in the dictionary, under the heading “straw man”.
Useless. Stats. On. A. Useless. Pointless. Unbelievably ill-thought-out association. Not. Even. An. Argument.
Now yer gonna count substitute teachers at full yearly salary, I’ll bet.
Wasted time on an idiot.
Aunt Eek is always a fun read. I have read your posts, jackscrow and I get what you are saying.
bluejackets: Yeah I respect your small business job. I have worked under several small businesses while in college and in high school… from hardware and restaurant to small appliances in several small towns around central Ohio. I am not here to say that those owners did not work hard. They sure as heck did. However I can recall many times where there were long periods of down times and unique situations of challenges and joy… just as teaching or any career. Teaching… especially on season is a 6 or 7 day job too. I sadly have to miss much of my football Sundays planning and worrying how the heck I am going to make it through the next week.
And bluejackets: why defend the bad teacher? I am not. I am defending the 90%+ teachers that work their tales off and deserve everything they get and then some. Your logic of voting no to hurt the vast majority of good people is absurd.
I have never said that all teachers are great. I think some may be better off bagging groceries at Kroger’s. But that does not mean that a majority are like that… nor should be punished for a few. I mean seriously… out of all the jobs I have been associated with… there are always a few slouches in any job at any time.
Point is we don’t need to drastically blow things up to alter some things.
Also from a teacher’s perspective: don’t have your child recording things. Just address this issue with that teacher. Do it two or three times if need be. Do it with respect which I am sure you will. Once that is done and you don’t see any type of positive outcome, I suggest you email the principal and CC that teacher to let them know that you mean business but continue in a kind and straightforward manner. 99% of the time it would never have to go even that far.
Yer picture otta be in the dictionary, under the heading “straw man”.
…Wasted time on an idiot.
Translation: I can’t counter that firefighting is traditionally a volunteer position, so I’ll call you an idiot.
Also from a teacher’s perspective: don’t have your child recording things.
Document, document, document. As I read it, the child decided to do the recording, not at the request of the parent.
Who else is going to keep track, if not someone in the room? And if you can’t say “on these dates and times”, what sort of legitimacy will your complaint be given?
Lover… btw I am sorry to hear about that teacher that I think we mutually knew. Very sad. And instead of correcting my grammar (okay that was bad) from one of my insomniac moments, why not join in the conversation?
Aunt: Just like some teachers need to learn better communication skills, so do parents. Parents need to realize that just a respectful conversation to make the teacher aware that the parent is aware will get a vast majority of those teachers’ rears in gear. Any person would take offense to the way it is being done as a child secretly recording things… it’s just best practice not to do that.
“Also from a teacher’s perspective: don’t have your child recording things. Just address this issue with that teacher. Do it two or three times if need be. Do it with respect which I am sure you will. Once that is done and you don’t see any type of positive outcome, I suggest you email the principal and CC that teacher to let them know that you mean business but continue in a kind and straightforward manner. 99% of the time it would never have to go even that far.”
I’ve not told my kid to record times. That was their idea.
I wish it was really was that simple. I’ve seen a few examples, even in our school system, that if a parent speaks out, the kids end up paying for it. Labeled, filed and “blackballed”. There is no way that you can try to convince me that this doesn’t happen. There are even examples of it in the news.
What else would you suggest?
“Translation: I can’t counter that firefighting is traditionally a volunteer position, so I’ll call you an idiot.”
Nope. And no translation needed. Upshot is you can’t count volunteers as salaried employees. If you try to do that, you’re an idiot. So, you’re an idiot.
Traditionally, firefighters used to pull wagons of water with horses….yeah…let’s go back to tradition when unions were not recognized and child labor ran rampant in indusrty, blacks were traditionally slaves and women couldn’t vote. Ahh, tradition!
bluejackets… I have seen examples of the opposite. BTW, I am sorry you have to go through that. But I still believe in the power of people skills and communication. If I were the father, I would tell my son to avoid that behavior immediately. IMO he has an argument, but there are just better ways to do it. And in a world where people are spied upon and humiliated amongst many forums and ways, I just don’t think that teaches the best of lessons.
If it were my child, again I would contact them personally and have a face to face discussion. Bring up my concerns and preface that I am not there to ruin their career or deface their character. Explain to them that you will be more than willing to help support your child and the teacher at home and you do not want drama. Let them know you will be direct with them and not go over their heads as long as there is an open line of communication. If these types of things fail which they normally should not, then keep contacting the principal. Principals may not have complete power but they certainly can create a tough environment for that teacher… and no teacher wants that either. If you want to give me more info without ousting the teacher publicly, I would be in favor of helping you more specifically.
I still don’t understand why you have cited a couple of examples and want to vote against the whole so they cannot have bargaining rights.
And I have said this before. I work in a right to work state with little union power. So, I see the opposite. I see it where teachers are fired for speaking up for their students. I see teachers sobbing in meetings for standing up for a child getting a “B” instead of the “A” they did not deserve and the principal and parent verbally abusing them… putting them on action plans and making it hell to work there. I have seen teachers walking on eggshells and in literal fear of losing their jobs on a daily basis. You may call that “accountability”, but in the end that is an educational environment that in no way benefits the vast majority of students.
5:
Why join in a conversation when it’s not a conversation? It’s actually a series of alternating monologues and, in some cases, it devolves to a barroom argument. No one has any intention of allowing his/her mind to change about anything; instead, every effort is expended to change the mind of others.
That’s why I no longer listen to “right-wing” or “left-wing” programs. I am looking for inquiry and reflection, not dogma and demagoguery.
The Christian Science Monitor is an excellent source for reasoned journalism and sound thinking.