Feb20
I have been reflecting lately on the path that America is on and I decided to ask your opinion….where did America go wrong?
My take in a nutshell is that the family broke in favor of material goods.
What is your opinion?
Crabby Fat Guy
An Unabashed Look at Lancaster Ohio
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Yes. The family, for the most part, is broken.
And, we’ve been acting as an “empire” for the last 50yrs. That takes a toll. It cannot succeed.
And, the US has changed from a production economy to a consumer debt economy; a transformation that took about 30 years. In that time span technology has replaced those jobs that haven’t moved overseas, and the lack of those jobs created our economic society of today; chock-full-o poverty, blame and hopelessness for a multitude.
The US is toast. It will be a very fast decline over the next 10yrs.
People have talked about our decline for 230 years. I agree that we’re in an overall decline recently and that a lack of strong manufacturing base is going to continue to hurt us but I think we can turn it around.
70 to 75 % divorce rate……and no god in the schools…… plus school teachers that teach your children how to spy on you and tell the teacher….There are so many things that need to be fixed…. and btw gun control is not one of them…
Oldman: you crack me up. I’m taking the bait because I am partly humored and partly annoyed with your ignorance. Would love to hear some of your inside story on this teacher spying BS. And God out of the schools? Wow what freaking nonsense. Kids are allowed to pray in schools so long as the teachers don’t endorse it. They’ve done it in my classroom and I’ve seen it in the cafeteria. Big freaking deal.
And Newsflash genius: Morality and loving God do not go hand in hand. If you want to talk the decay of morality or universal values, then I am all ears. And I would agree that it is an issue.
Crabby: I was about to agree with you and to an extent I still do. But I will take on a different angle just because. I personally believe the most drastic of differences started when the everyday man became privy to the internet and the modern PC and technology. Technology has allowed the good and bad; but maybe… just maybe it has accelerated the extremes. On the good, it has allowed us to see more BS that has been around for the ages. And we’re no longer naive to it. And we get angry about it. The have nots feel like they should have more of the pie than ever before. And the white men sitting on top of the throne should be pissing their pants. Because people are coming for it. But that’s neither here nor there.
But technology has also brought about porn to the masses as well as social diversions which has compromised the family unit. Now that I think about it, porn and social diversions may actually help some families! Technology now has it that you can simply charge up your card with debt with one click of the mouse. Now that I believe is a huge issue. And on the flip side, the massive amounts of access to “information” has also done the opposite effect. People are so attention lacking due to a brain drain and/or a lack of time that the internet feeds into instant gratification of news. So in other words, we get news from sensational stories on simply headlines with no substance… which further breeds ignorance.
The Kama Sutra has been dated from 300 BC to 400 AD.
Lover: absolutely. The Romans were quite the lovers… or so I have heard.
Oldman: I apologize for my delivery. You caught me at the right time.
America went wrong with letting the media run everything.
Romans? Wrong section of the globe; wrong race.
Besides, my real point is that humankind has always had an abiding interest in sex and pornography and has used the technology that was available at the time to view pornography.
Lover: you just assume I’m stupid, don’t you? A stupid fish? LOL. It’s all good because I am. But I was reaffirming your point and understood your stance. For the record, I do know there were massive differences between the Indian and Roman cultures. However, sex was common. Sex often with multiple partners. We’re saying the same thing.
The more I have thought about the original argument, it should IMHO be phrased more as to how we’ve shifted from a perceived Judeo Christian United States that was never there in the first place. At least in terms of morality. You don’t have to be a historian to know that we’ve had terrible things happen in this country since before it’s infancy.
Even when we were in the height of the industrial age, poverty and a lack of education was rampant and people were dying on their jobs.
I would imagine that you would agree, Lover.
ok…. Ohio bobcat…… what the heck do we do to fix this problem besides pulling the plug on the electric and living in the back woods and kill it and eat it society.
oldman: Ahhh I will buy in.
1.) Start with schools. Public institutions need to be protected. Discourse and critical thinking need to be valued. Schools were maybe far from perfect, but now they’re terrible due to the corporate model and capitalism running the show. It has brought out competition which appeases more parents to sue and get grade inflation and expect them as a given (and students see this terrible precedence and now are picking it up themselves); allows big ticket corporations to have their say so educators and students alike have to make sacrifices of learning to instead the almighty dollar.
Students should all spend their formative years learning about our government and basic functions of being good citizens. Standardized tests which prove nothing and reinforce students as numbers should be eliminated. And like many successful education societies in the world, students should be on different paths at a young age.. not a one size fits all. Math, reading, and writing basics must be achieved but at individual paces to ensure growth for all before encouragement into specific fields.
2.) If we can somehow turn around the recent and erroneous assumptions of our schools, then maybe… just maybe we can slowly turn our young ones into a more U.S. oriented society instead of a “me” society. We can slowly develop more of our own to handle all of the new high tech jobs that no one seems to be trained to do and in which has replaced the manufacturing ones. We can eventually encourage more family values through this by a better quality of life… less drugs, less diversions. We can build from the ground up.
But we need to start with information and discourse, not ignorance. I will be the first to admit that I’ve been wrong before. But reading some of your posts and those of others shows that you’re not truly being a part of the solution. Thanks for asking and hopefully we can all grow to help our country. I still love it. This country (and yes, the constitution) was built on critical thinking and compromise. Both of these are gone at the moment.
How do you intend to make the parents understand that the education of their children is important, and they must participate?
wirenut: I am not naive. I think we would have a fighting chance to save this country if we did some of those things in school as a start.
I know. That parent thing. We’re our own worst enemies. But I think in part, we need to start with the kids and hope for the best. I know that when I used to visit South or East School as a young adult in college, the boys in particular would gravitate towards me. They just wanted attention. Positive attention. Role models. I see the same thing when I visit some of the schools in my district that are poverty stricken. The boys and girls love seeing new faces and basically talk my year off; yelling over each other to try and get a chance to talk. This is terrible. It needs to change. I told oldman and others on here before that if they’re retired and able bodied, please, PLEASE try to donate some time in a public school. Big Brothers/ Big Sisters. This will help our communities. We can hope and pray that strong messages and actions will inspire some of the students to excel. And we must further encourage this evolution with changing the school dynamic. Finding creative ways to inspire young boys and girls to be excited about opportunities. So hopefully one day they will be better parents and we can start turning individuals into productive citizens. Hopefully that will then turn into a trend.
…And the people that take their kids out of the public schools for reasons other than their religion: SHAME. Shame on you. Shame for not allowing your public influence and the influence of your children to be positive role models for the children that do not get that. This is only exacerbating the issue.
5: I have no opinion of your intelligence whatsoever. You wrote “Romans,” and I responded to that post. Additionally, I was not casting bait.
Lover: no worries but if you did judge my intelligence I would be fine with that… maybe mensa is in my future. Who knows?
Oldman: c’mon… I would like to hear your response. Some discourse would be nice. I don’t mind disagreements. I would like to hear your thoughts. Or anyone else for that matter?
Mensa – My suggestion: Don’t waste your time with it.
Mensa – I just realized that I should clarify.
I didn’t mean don’t waste your time by trying to get into it. That would be an insult, and I’m sure that you took as such. I apologize for my lack of clarity, but I promise that I was not trying to insult you.
What I was trying to convey is that the organization is not worth your time. I was a member for a few months and was greatly unimpressed.
Two memories are prominent in my mind: 1. If the organization would accept me, they are not actually all that discerning; 2. They couldn’t spell my first name correctly.
Lover: I have never had a problem with you. No worries. It’s too bad that this forum does not show the inflection of my thoughts. I would like to think that I don’t take myself too seriously and hopefully that comes out on here at times.
BTW, Mensa would never interest me. Seems like it would be for a bunch of elitists. I do like talking to All- Americans like oldman but I guess he has left the building. Discussions and thinking are good. Sometimes a forum can achieve this to a point… maybe.
Lover and/or anyone else still out there. What do you think of this?
http://mashable.com/2013/03/02/wealth-inequality/
I first encountered these data about fifteen years ago when I was teaching “Animal Farm.” Things have changed some but, for the super wealthy, not as much as some might think.
His main argument rests upon two a priori assertions – that the current distribution is unfair (perhaps it is, but only showing the unequal earnings is not proof) and that most people deserve more money.
Also, he doesn’t mention one important point: The money that the wealthy have in bonds and stocks enable businesses to create jobs for people such as I. This also means that the wealthy don’t have that cash in hand.
Unintended consequence: His proposed method of re-allocating the wealth could result in increased consumption of goods, thereby increasing the depletion of Earth’s resources and the level of pollutants.
Final point: As I have mentioned before, as long as someone has earned his money honestly through no favoritism or other unethical means, then I don’t care how much he has. However, if he earned it unscrupulously, he should be imprisoned, along with anyone who aided him, such as politicians who pass special laws, etc.
And a question: Compared to most of the world, Europe and the United States are astoundingly wealthy, even most of the poor. Should we confiscate the money of the wealthy and people such as you and I, and give it to the truly poor of the world?
Ahhh love the last question and the general discourse. I suppose that answer (to the last question again) is how much BS (or how hypocritical) can we ultimately be? Don’t think for a second that I am endorsing much of any of American culture, values, or beliefs other than much of what was printed on the constitution. When we are a nation that was founded from bloodshed and slaughter, it again reiterates the talking points earlier on the topic of *when* our country turned south. We went bad? As opposed to once we were not?
Although I align more of my beliefs with a liberal, I cannot stand those hypocrisies. Liberals and conservatives alike are hypocrites… We all live in a world of hypocrisy. Again, I suppose it’s how much we can stand to have it amongst ourselves and a nation.
The short and moral answer should be yes. The truth is no. I enjoy the middle class lifestyle. Thinking things in such ways scares me and 99% of other Americans… threatens what we wish to have and seek and what we’ve been taught we should be able to achieve… as the expectations of the *American Dream*. Hey, at least I am honest?
I understand your point of view completely and will add a couple of items.
I cannot find the person who wrote this, and other versions exist: “The history of man is written in blood.”
This from Twain, although I cannot find it right now on the Net: “There is not one inch of land that is not covered with blood.” If he didn’t write it, it’s still a true line.
Throughout history, I know of no country that was not conceived in blood or did not commit injustices.
One final item: Adolf Hitler is supposed to have studied Sherman’s campaigns against the Native Americans. I can’t swear to the truth of that statement, though.
Lover: yes, every country was founded from blood. I don’t think I resent my own country for our misgivings necessarily… but simply an acknowledgement. Acknowledgement of truth is somewhat of a lost perspective.
People slam Sherman but in ways I actually think he was quite brilliant. I am not as familiar with his actions with the Native Americans but I could only imagine.
My concerns with the lawful gain and sustaining of wealth revolves around a group of affluent whites whom control said wealth and thus power. And they keep it amongst themselves. Your perspective is noble but I don’t know if I agree.
Not sure I understand. Which perspective?
“Final point: As I have mentioned before, as long as someone has earned his money honestly through no favoritism or other unethical means, then I don’t care how much he has. However, if he earned it unscrupulously, he should be imprisoned, along with anyone who aided him, such as politicians who pass special laws, etc.”
—I get this. And I don’t mind and understand that the playing field will never be completely level. However, the inequalities are so great right now, I just don’t know if I agree with this. Since wealth and power encompasses such a small amount of people whom are mostly affluent whites who extend it only to close family and friends, it seems as if the current system and set of systems and policies over the years have failed. I don’t have an answer for this, btw.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/01/13/we-have-met-the-1-and-he-is-us/
I don’t know but I suspect that most wealthy person became rich through unscrupulous means. After all, considering that Diogenes failed in his satiric quest, I doubt that we would have any more success in this age.
Here’s a big question, though: Will confiscating their wealth and imprisoning them help or hurt the overall economic condition of the country and the people?
Hermit:
From Thomas Hobbes: Life in the state of nature is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.”
Lover: I appreciate your honesty. I don’t know the answer to your question. It’s often hard to prove. I’ve been quite busy lately in my own life outside cyber space and will have to resume at another time.